This is a past event.
Connecting Japanese and Korean capital to global real estate
The PERE Japan Korea Week Virtual Experience has successfully created a virtual meeting place for private real estate leaders to secure capital allocations from Japanese and Korean LPs on 14-18 September.
Equip yourself with the knowledge to make smart business decisions in uncertain times through our interactive virtual platform. Held over five days, you have the flexibility to arrange 1-to-1 meetings around your schedule and catchup on insightful sessions at your leisure.
Gain instant access to the most influential community of active Japanese and Korean investors and global fund managers to expand your networks and advance your fundraising.
Discover how to adapt to a covid-19 world
2020 featured speakers include:
Confirmed Japanese and Korean LP attendees
Join them at PERE Japan Korea Week to supercharge your fundraising
Join Japan and Korea’s leading LPs
Learn how Japanese and Korean LPs are overcoming covid-19 challenges
View the pre-event session “The new normal for Japanese and Korean LPs: Overcoming covid-19 investment challenges” that took place on 4 September with Aberdeen Standard Investments and Hana Financial Investment. Gain an understanding of how Japanese and Korean investors are adapting to the new normal amid the pandemic and the key to fundraising during this challenging time. The session is proving more important than ever as it becomes increasingly difficult to secure capital allocations.
Open more doors at Japan Korea Week with a Global Passport
The PERE Global Passport connects you to the virtual community of real estate decision-makers that attend all six of PERE’s industry-leading events with special perks that gives you the advantage to secure capital commitments and finalize your next project over your peers. All without leaving your (home) office!
Redefine the conference experience
In the new era of private real estate, we are redefining the conference experience with an interactive virtual Japan Korea Week to help you expand your network of LPs and advance your fundraising goals from wherever you are.
One-click access to the global community
Personalise your agenda and meetings
Enjoy conference from wherever you are
Talk to headline speakers in live Q&A
Replay the content as you need
Join Asia’s two leading outbound investment virtual experiences with one easy ticket purchase
On 15 September, the 7th annual PERE Investor Forum: Seoul opened Japan Korea Week and virtually transformed the next wave of global private real estate fund allocations by connecting the most influential Korean LPs with global real estate leaders.
The 9th edition of the PERE Investor Forum: Tokyo on 17 September 2020 closed out Japan Korea Week, while on-demand still allowing you to virtually connect with regional and global decision-makers to examine the investment strategies of the largest Japanese investors.
Join the new era of networking
The virtual conference will give you greater access to, and interactivity with, LPs and peers than ever before through extended networking and premium on-demand content available until the end of February 2021.
Continue your fundraising journey in Japan and Korea for the rest of the year at the touch of a button and connect with the region’s leading LPs, as well as your global peers, from the comfort of your (home) office.
Meet the right people
Enhanced search capabilities, including the ability to see the list of attendees to an agenda session and sophisticated filtering allow you to narrow down potential business partners by region, investment strategy and sector to ensure you don’t miss a single new opportunity.
- Check out who is attending through the attendee list and schedule a meeting with them
- Use the filter function to meet the right people
Chat and arrange video meetings
Book unlimited 1-on-1 video meetings with Japanese and Korean LPs speakers and global attendees in virtual meeting rooms. Just search for your desired attendees and invite them for a chat. Once you have set up your meeting you can invite other event attendees to join.
- Create a want to meet list to help you gather the people you want to meet in one simple place
- Connect & chat with peers using conversations tab to start a new conversation
- Schedule video meetings in your built-in schedule
Lead the global conversation
Through interactive roundtable sessions, you can knowledge share with the global PERE community. It is the virtual equivalent of a breakout or roundtable at a traditional conference, you will be face-to-face with like-minded peers to discuss the asset class’ latest trends and strategies.
- Join interactive roundtable sessions from to discuss the trends moving the industry forward
- In public forums, create new topics and chat with your global leaders
Ask questions to the titans of industry
Following panels during the conference week speakers will be available in live Q&A for your questions. Discuss challenges and strategies with the panellists and your peers during and after the sessions.
- Engage through live polling and surveys
- Built-in calendar to create your own daily schedule so you don’t miss your favorite sessions
- Automated reminders
On-demand when you need it
All content will be streamed live and then available on-demand through the platform until the end of February 2021. Watch the live content or arrange your replays at the comfort from your home (office).
- On-demand playback gives you access to sessions until the end of February 2021
- Private messaging and discussions are also available until the end of February 2021 to connect privately and directly online
Secure your access today
Our immersive virtual platformgive you greater access to, and interactivity with, LPs and peers than ever before through extended networking and premium on-demand content available until the end of February 2021.
Learn how Japanese and Korean LPs are overcoming covid-19 challenges
The PERE Japan Korea Week Virtual Experience ran a complimentary session on The new normal for Japanese and Korean LPs: Overcoming covid-19 investment challenges.
On Friday, 4 September at 3pm UTC+9 (Japan/Korea Standard Time), Aberdeen Standard Investments and Hana Financial Investment explained how Japanese and Korean LPs expect to be communicated with in a covid-19 world. The session is available on-demand now.
While we cannot be together on the ground in Seoul or Tokyo, the session will highlight how attending the virtual conference will allow you to continue securing allocations from Asia’s largest LPs in 2020 and beyond.
VIEW THE SESSION TODAY TO CONTINUE YOUR FUNDRAISING IN 2020
The new normal for Japanese and Korean LPs: Overcoming covid-19 investment challenges
- Real Estate investors in Korea and Japan: How has covid affected their confidence in real estate and its sub-asset classes. Which sectors will prove to be resilient?
- Confidence in outbound investment: Will we see a decrease in overseas allocation?
- How will Covid affect the processes from fundraising to deployment?
Doyle Kim
Managing Director and Head of Real Asset Investment Finance Department
Hana Financial Management
As a Managing Director of Hana Financial Investment (Top Investment Bank in Korean Real Estate Finance industry) and a head of Real Asset Investment Finance Department, Kim is leading a Real Estate Investment Business in Korean Domestic and Global Overseas since beginning of 2020. Prior to Hana, he has over 10 years of experience as a Real Estate Finance and Investment Manager in Samsung Fire and Marine Insurance. Also was a Global Real Estate Investment Manager in Shinhan Securities for 2.5 years, 10 years in Hyundai Engineering and Construction for developing overseas business in Hong Kong and local business in Korea.
Hidetoshi Ono
Head of Direct Real Estate, Japan
Aberdeen Standard Investments
Hidetoshi Ono recently joined Aberdeen Standard Investments as Head of Direct Real Estate –Japan to build and grow the firm’s direct real estate investment business in the country. He is a member of ASI’s Asia Regional Investment Committee. Currently, ASI manages 15 senior housing properties in Japan. Hidetoshi has more than 30 years of real estate and senior management experience in Manulife, AXA, ING (now CBRE GI), GE, and Mitsui Fudosan. Before joining ASI, Ono-san was the Managing Director, Japan Real Estate at Manulife where he was responsible for the company’s real estate investment in Japan as well as the corporate real estate needs for the life insurance operation with 100 locations nation-wide.
Florian Nuessel
Conference Producer
PERE
Expand your network. Supercharge your fundraising efforts.
Established as the largest gathering for private real estate leaders, PERE Japan Korea Week offers you access to the global real estate’s most influential community and connect you with the largest LPs and global GPs in the region.
Enhance strategies. Accelerate fundraising.
Demonstrate your unique value-add capabilities to LPs allocating capital to global private real estate to turbocharge your fundraising in 2020 and beyond. Exchange ideas with prominent local and global GPs, developers, and strategic advisors to enhance your investment strategies across the globe.
Learn how Japanese and Korean LPs overcome investment challenges
We invite everyone to join a complimentary session on The new normal for Japanese and Korean LPs: Overcoming covid-19 investment challenges ahead of PERE Japan Korea Week to explore the virtual experience and how to get most of your access.
On 4 September, Aberdeen Standard Investment and Hana Financial Investment shared their recommendations for communicating with the region’s LPs in 2020 and beyond. View the recording and discover the key to successful fundraising in Japan and Korea.
The Japan Korea Week virtual experience is centered on networking and fundraising for global real estate. The interactive agenda includes three days dedicated to networking and knowledge-sharing, and two Forum days focused on the latest trends and strategies of both Japan and Korea’s leading LPs.
For programme enquiries, please contact
Andrew Wolff at andrew.w@peimedia.com for PERE Investor Forum: Tokyo.
Florian Nuessel at florian.n@peimedia.com for PERE Investor Forum: Seoul.
View agenda page
Agenda
Day 1 - Monday 14th
Online networking
06:00 - 23:59
Online networking for "PERE Japan Korea Week" starts at 06:00 on 14th September and ends at 23:59 on 18th September
11:00 - 12:00
Interactive Roundtable - Session: Tokyo LP Networking (For PERE Tokyo's LPs only)
Shinji Kawano
Agenda
Day 2 - Tuesday 15th
Virtual event - PERE Investor Forum: Seoul
09:30 - 09:36
PERE Virtual conference tutorial in English followed by Q&A
A quick yet comprehensive walkthrough on how to make most out of your virtual pass
Followed by Live Q&A Room (in English)
09:30 - 09:37
PERE Virtual conference tutorial in Korean followed by Q&A
A quick yet comprehensive walkthrough on how to make most out of your virtual pass
Followed by Live Q&A Room (in Korean)
09:55 - 10:00
PEI Welcome and opening remarks
10:00 - 10:35
Opening keynote panel: Can supply match demand for outbound capital?
Jayme Younghee Han,
Doyle Kim,
Laurent Jacquemin,
Sang Hoon Kim
- What are the latest capital flow movements and macro trends?
- What areas are the most resilient in terms of covid-related impacts?
- What is happening in terms of secondaries and exit strategies?
- Will the investment wave into Europe continue?
Live Q&A Room and discussion roundtable will take place at 11:10 Seoul time.
10:35 - 11:10
Is North America back on the menu for Korean capital?: Unlocking opportunities in global real estate’s largest region
Evelyn Lee,
Paul Gillen,
Justin Pattner
Hear from a selection of the region’s top players on the asset classes will emerge strong from Covid – and what sectors will be left behind.
Live Q&A Room and discussion roundtable will take place at 11:10 Seoul time
11:10 - 11:30
Interactive roundtable: Meet the speakers and roundtable discussions (Session 1: Opening keynote Q&A: Korean outbound trends)
Jayme Younghee Han,
Doyle Kim,
Sang Hoon Kim,
Laurent Jacquemin
11:10 - 11:30
Interactive roundtable: Meet the speakers and roundtable discussions (Session 2: North America Q&A: Uncovering opportunities)
Evelyn Lee,
Paul Gillen,
Justin Pattner
11:30 - 11:50
Data: Who’s leading the pack? Tracking the biggest LPs and GPs in private real estate
Nicole Douglas
PEI Media’s in-house experts discuss fundraising, investment trends and rank the leaders in real estate
11:50 - 12:50
Lunch Networking Chatroom
12:50 - 13:20
Alternatives: and specialist fields beyond office and retail: Interview: Hospitality
Kevin Colket,
Arshiya Khullar
13:20 - 13:50
Alternatives: and specialist fields beyond office and retail: Presentation: Logistics
Rahul Ghai
Live Q&A Room and discussion roundtable will take place at 13:50 Seoul time
13:50 - 14:10
Networking Chatroom
13:50 - 14:10
Interactive roundtable: Meet the speakers and roundtable discussions (Session 1: Logistics: A growth motor for the post-covid era?)
Rahul Ghai
13:50 - 14:10
Interactive roundtable: Meet the speakers and roundtable discussions (Session 2: Direct opportunities: Risks and returns)
14:10 - 14:55
Asia markets: How covid will shape the real estate future of millions
Christie Ou,
Brian Chinappi,
Rohan Sikri ,
Claire Tang
China, India and opportunities in Asia’s largest markets: : A fresh look into the latest developments in the region and how Covid will shape the real estate future of millions of people
Live Q&A Room and discussion roundtable will take place at 15:50 Seoul time
14:55 - 15:50
European markets: Times they are a-changing?
Lennart van Mierlo,
Adrian Karczewicz,
Martin Towns,
Luke Mines
Amidst currency fluctuations and increased investement regulations, will the region continue to be a prime focus for Korean investment?
Live Q&A Room and discussion roundtable will take place at 15:50 Seoul time
15:50 - 16:10
Interactive roundtable : Meet the speakers and roundtable discussions (Session 1: Europe Opportunities)
Luke Mines,
Lennart van Mierlo,
Adrian Karczewicz,
Martin Towns
15:50 - 16:10
Interactive roundtable : Meet the speakers and roundtable discussions (Session 2: Asia Markets)
Christie Ou,
Claire Tang,
Brian Chinappi,
Rohan Sikri
16:10 - 16:50
Korea’s institutional roundtable: What keeps the country’s LPs awake at night?
Janghwan Lee,
Jinho Lee,
Changeun (Harry) Song,
Andrew Shin
- Factors that will shape global real estate and its performance for the year ahead
- Capital owner perspectives and the recent co-investment rise
- Will a post Covid-19 world change the way Korean institutionals work?
Live Q&A Room and discussion roundtable will take place at 16:50 Seoul time
Changeun (Harry) Song
Head of Overseas Real Estate, Public Officials Benefit Association (POBA)
Read bio
16:50 - 17:15
Live Q&A Room - with the LP speakers
Andrew Shin,
Janghwan Lee,
Jinho Lee,
Changeun (Harry) Song
Changeun (Harry) Song
Head of Overseas Real Estate, Public Officials Benefit Association (POBA)
Read bio
17:15 - 17:40
Real estate debt webcasts: Bill Schwab’s take on today’s challenges for real estate credit
17:40 - 18:10
Real Estate debt webcast : The outlook for China’s real estate debt market
18:10 - 18:15
Closing Remarks
18:10 - 19:10
Sponsor networking
Agenda
Day 3 - Wednesday 16th
Online networking
06:00 - 23:59
Online networking
14:00 - 15:00
Interactive Roundtable - Session: Current trends in fundraising (For PERE Tokyo's attendees)
Kallan Resnick
15:00 - 15:30
News and Data Showcase
Agenda
Day 4 - Thursday 17th
Virtual event - PERE Investor Forum: Tokyo
07:00 - 09:30
Sponsor networking
09:00 - 09:25
Tutorial with live Q&A in English
09:00 - 09:25
Tutorial with live Q&A in Japanese
09:30 - 09:35
PERE welcome
09:35 - 10:20
Keynote Panel: Putting Japanese capital to work in global markets during a global crisis
Arshiya Khullar,
Yasuyuki Sanami,
Mark Elliott,
Kevin Colket,
Masaki Arimura
- How can Japanese investors get more comfortable about actively participating in the global real estate markets given the current crisis?
- Investing in EU vs. UK in the post Brexit world
- The US: is it one market or many? How should Japanese investors look at it in the
current context?
Followed by interactive Q&A session (10:20 – 10:40)
10:25 - 11:09
Panel: Real Estate opportunities beyond core sectors during Covid-19
Laurent Jacquemin,
Shusaku Watanabe,
Christie Ou,
Kunihiko Okumura
- Understanding mid-market investing opportunities
- Value add and Opportunistic funds, should Japanese investors be taking a closer look?
- How has the current crisis impacted these sectors?
Followed by interactive Q&A session (11:09 – 11:29)
11:15 - 11:45
Networking Chatrooms
11:15 - 11:45
Interactive Roundtables (Session: Emerging real estate)
Ari Druker
11:45 - 12:18
Keynote Presentation: Post-Covid: Who is ready for the new normal?
Martin Schulz
Followed by interactive Q&A session (12:18 – 12:38)
12:20 - 13:04
Panel: Current investing trends in the Japanese market in context of the pandemic
Tetsuya Fujita,
Harumi Kadono,
Daisuke Kitta,
Toshio Fukushima,
Shin Takahashi
- Japan Post – Covid 19 – What are the most important themes for investors?
- How has the coronavirus impacted the market?
- Why are investors increasingly interested in the residential sector?
Followed by interactive Q&A session (13:04 – 13:24)
Harumi Kadono
Head of Fund Management Department and Managing Director, IDERA Capital Management
Read bio
13:15 - 13:50
Networking Chatrooms
13:15 - 13:50
Interactive Roundtables (Session: Risk Management & Covid-19)
Shusaku Watanabe
13:50 - 14:29
Panel: Real estate debt – a winning sector in times of uncertainty?
James Haines,
Shai Greenberg,
Ari Druker,
Philip Ryan
- Debt vs Equity – for the Japanese investor, what is best now and why?
- Debt opportunities – USA vs EUR vs Japan vs elsewhere such as Australia
- Senior vs. Mezzanine – for the Japanese investor, what are the pros and cons?
Followed by interactive Q&A session (14:29 – 14:49)
14:30 - 14:52
Presentation: Overview of the Japanese Office Market
Toyokazu Imazeki
Followed by interactive Q&A session (14:52 – 15:12)
15:00 - 15:30
Networking Chatrooms
15:00 - 15:30
Interactive Roundtables (Session: Tokyo Real Estate)
Hidetoshi Ono
15:30 - 16:15
Panel: Investing in sector specific vs diversified funds
Naoko Saito,
Charles Haase,
Barry Hirschfeld ,
Matt Dimond
- Understanding the pros and cons to investing sector specific vs diversified funds
- Japanese LPs have shied away from sector specific funds, why should they reconsider them?
- Overview of sector specific investing opportunities such as in residential, logistics and senior housing
Followed by interactive Q&A session (16:15 – 16:35)
16:20 - 17:05
Panel: What do Japanese LPs want? The secrets to relationship building in Japan in the Covid-19 era
Mitsuhiro Arakawa,
Akihisa Hoshino,
Takeshi Ito,
Kiyosei Sugioka,
Shinji Kawano
- How do more experienced LPs evaluate their RE portfolio of investments so far?
- How has the crisis affected the LP/GP relationship dynamic?
- LP Scorecard: How do LPs assess their current relationships with GPs so far?
Followed by interactive Q&A session (17:05 – 17:25)
17:15 - 18:15
Interactive Roundtables (Session 1: VIP & LP Lounge)
17:15 - 18:15
Interactive Roundtables (Session 2: Exit Strategies)
Charles Haase
Agenda
Day 5 - Friday 18th
Online networking
06:00 - 23:59
Online networking for "PERE Japan Korea Week" ends at 23:59 on 18th September
Akihisa Hoshino
Associate General Manager, Alternative Funds Investment Department, Sumitomo Mitsui Trust Bank
PERE Japan Korea Week offers a unique opportunity for organisations to raise their profile by meeting with local as and global audience of senior decision-makers in the private real estate industry.
For exclusive sponsorship packages for 2020, contact the Sponsorship Team at asiasponsorship@peimedia.com or call +852 3704 4624
Just released:
PERE Japan Korea Week virtual event preview
Explore the immersive virtual conference experience, as well as the confirmed LP attendee list, insight from the market, our world-class agenda, and much more.
Pre-Event Resources
video
The new normal for Japanese and Korean LPs: overcoming covid-19 investment challenges
By PERE Japan Korea Week
Explore our previous events
JOIN THE NEW ERA OF REAL ESTATE FUNDRAISING
Valuable connections and unlimited fundraising opportunities
Maximise your networking time with local and global real estate’s most influential community by attending Asia’s two leading outbound investment conferences – the PERE Investor Forum: Seoul and the PERE Investor Forum: Tokyo.
With one simple ticket purchase, you can supercharge your fundraising in Asia by gaining one-click access to Asia’s two powerhouse LP bases through our immersive virtual platform.
PERE Japan Korea Week
virtual pass
Purchase a full access ticket to Japan Korea Week on 14-18 September to create valuable connections with Japanese and Korean LPs from the comfort of your home (office).
Includes:
- Access to all Japan Korea Week attendees from across the globe
- Access to leading Korean and Japanese LPs across the two forums
- Access to 3 days of premium content until the end of February 2021
- 5-day virtual networking with the leaders in global real estate investment
- Contact PERE Japan Korea attendees before, during and after the event
PERE Investor Forum: Seoul
virtual pass
Gain access to influential Korean LPs at the 7th annual PERE Investor Forum: Seoul.
Includes:
- Access to Korea’s private real estate investment community
- Access to leading Korean LPs
- Access to 1 day of premium content until the end of February 2021
- 5-day virtual networking with the leaders in global real estate investment
- Contact Investor Forum: Seoul attendees before, during and after the event
PERE Investor Forum: Tokyo
virtual pass
The 9th annual PERE Investor Forum:Tokyo on 17 September is the is renowned as the leading conference for Japanese and global private real estate professionals.
Includes:
- Access to Japan’s private real estate community
- Access to leading Japanese LPs
- Access to 1 day of premium content until the end of February 2021
- 5-day virtual networking with the leaders in global real estate investment
- Contact Investor Forum: Tokyo attendees before, during and after the event
Ticket definitions
General delegate
For in-house experts at fund and asset managers, developers, and banks.
Service provider
For employees of any professional services organisation which provides advisory service and/or technology solutions to investment professionals.
Subscriber
For all current Platinum or Gold subscribers to PERE. Only the named subscriber of an account is eligible for the discount, confirmation subject to approval.
Qualified investor
For permanent employees from foundations, endowments, insurance companies, pension funds, and sovereign wealth funds. Confirmation subject to approval.
Creating valuable connections and unlimited fundraising opportunities
As we all continue to search for ways to maximise business efficiency and returns during the covid-19 pandemic, PERE is committed to connecting the global real estate community so business can continue as normal as possible.
To deliver on this commitment of creating valuable connections and fundraising for the asset class, PERE Japan Korea Week is now available as a virtual experience, alongside the live content from Tokyo and Seoul.
You can navigate the interactive virtual conference through one-click access from the comfort of your time zone, on your device. Watch the content in real-time or on-demand and enjoy extended networking running from 14-18 September.
Stay connected with the global community with flexible attendance
Maximise your time and personalise your conference schedule to align with your business goals and availability. Plan your meetings and key sessions to hear and balance your day-today work before, during, and after the event day.
Make valuable connections with leading Japanese and Korean LPs
Staying connected to global LPs is key, and a major hurdle, to current business practices. PERE Japan Korea Week will connect you with leading Japanese and Korean LPs to ensure your fundraising pursuits continue as usual with our interactive virtual experience.
Private networking without borders
Fundraise and maintain personal connections with the industry through the extensive networking platform. Book unlimited 1-on-1 meetings with Japanese and Korean LPs, and global attendees in virtual meeting rooms.
Maximise your time, maximise your returns with personalised schedule
By going virtual, you can build the same personal connections with Japanese and Korean LPs whilst saving yourself valuable time that ensures you are only focusing on what is most important to your business.
Themed discussions with specialists
Moderated by real estate’s leaders, PERE brings you opportunities to join in-depth discussions on focused trends, strategies, assets, and much more. Knowledge-share with regional leaders and advance your investment and fundraising strategies.
Talk to headline speakers
Learn the strategies, unrivalled insights, and much more from our headline speakers by joining live Q&A sessions with keynotes, major Japanese and Korean LP speakers, and global leaders of private real estate.
Bilingual conferences without language barriers
All premium content will be bilingual – in the native language and English – to ensure you gain the maximum insight available. With the virtual pass, you can access key content both before, during, and after the event.
Business matchmaking intelligence
Through PERE’s premium business matchmaking intelligence, you can meet the right person and achieve your business goals easier. Tell PERE what types of audience you want to connect with, and we will do the job for you. Platinum subscribers can download LP profiles before anybody else to start planning their meeting wish-list.
Join the new era of networking
Secure capital allocations and gain the latest market insights at the PERE Japan Korea Week virtual experience. There is no better place to discover the trends and capital allocation preferences of Japan and Korea’s largest LPs as fundraising for real estate in Asia continues to gain momentum.
Redefining the networking experience
PERE is committed to connecting the global real estate community so business can continue as normal as possible during abnormal conditions.
Through state-of-the-art technology, PERE Global Passport holders will have the asset class’ most influential decision-makers across the world instantly available for face-to-face video meetings to drive their business forward.
Join ADIA, Allianz Real Estate, CPPIB, CalSTRS, GPIF, NPS and many more investors at all six of PERE’s industry-leading virtual conferences across the year.
Join the new era of networking
The Global Passport is a virtual community of real estate decision-makers that allows you to secure capital commitments and build your client portfolio without leaving your (home) office.
Fill in your details to download the Global Passport brochure for more information.
Six unique content offerings, one Global Passport
14-18 September
Maximize your fundraising at Korea’s #1 global real estate conference
14-18 September
Connecting Japanese capital to global private real estate
9-13 November
North America’s most powerful networking
16-20 November
Financing global private real estate with Asian capital
16-20 November
Shaping the future of private real estate at PERE’s flagship conference
16-20 November
Europe’s largest gathering of private real estate leaders
Enhance your PERE Japan Korea Week experience
PERE Global Passport holders get access to the most influential global real estate community across all six of our industry-leading conferences to ensure their business stays as normal as possible in abnormal times.